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| < The Sociology of Severus Snape ~ Good Angel/Bad Angel |
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 Posted:
Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:29 pm
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Site Admin
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Southern New Jersey - where the cool wizards hang!
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| This essay laid out some very good explanations for what may motivate Snape to do the things he does and act the way he does. What is most interesting is that JKR has left the door completely open – that is, she has made it clear that all the characters have the ability to make both good and bad decisions and that each character is eventually going to have to face the consequences of their actions/choices. However, she has also shown us that redemption and forgiveness is possible, again in the character of Snape. How do you think these concepts have impacted who he is today – has he become bitter because he made a mistake, or is he bitter because he was cast out of the DE’s and is not relegated to service to Dumbledore; is he resentful of the compassion he is shown by Dumbledore and having to be “saved”; is he fearful of retribution? |
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| Posted:
Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:37 pm
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Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 47
Location: Wherever Remus is...hopefully!!
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It is all about choices. In your own words:
"Children form many lasting ideas about themselves (including whether they see themselves as strong, weak, smart, stupid, loved and cared for...or merely tolerated) based on their parents' and others' behavior toward them."
Well, Harry had 4 bullies to contend with growing up (if you include "Aunt" Marge) and no friends at school, because of Dudley's presence. But he doesn't come to Hogwarts hating everyone and develops one friendship on the train, and many more afterwards. Snape obviously doesn't. His only pre-Hogwarts bully that we know of is, his father. He hasn't tried to fit in that we can see, he has no buddies in his 5th year. He antagonizes the one person that sticks up for him (Lily), and loses her support. He's at a school where everything is done for you, domestically, so why does he have gray underwear? He is not physically clean, and this has been going on for awhile, obviously, or it wouldn't be part of the MWPP's taunts.
Snape has chosen to look at all the "slights" and remember them and allowed them to fester. He's a bigot, and immature, and this is what is teaching the wizarding world of the UK's children? Not a very good example to set. I have no liking whatsoever for bullies and bigots, and I don't think he will ever change.
He has made his choice, now he will have to live with the results of it. |
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:59 am
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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Location: Tennessee
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Different people also respond to the same type of situation in different ways, though. There is no one "textbook" response to any given situation. (Though that would make things very easy to explain...  ) Harry's personality is different from Snape's, so therefore while their situation growing up may be similar, their responses will be different. Snape seems to have had a great deal of caring for what others thought, based on his almost ashamed and withdrawn behavior in the flashbacks in OotP, yet Harry doesn't really seem to care all that much what others think, which would cause his different and much less withdrawn reaction.
As for physical cleanliness, we really don't know how many domestic tasks are "taken care of" for the students while they are at Hogwarts. No mention is ever made of laundry, regardless of whether the students do it or the house elves do -- or perhaps they just use magic. In any case, "clean" underwear can still be greying if it is old, so just because it's greying doesn't necessarily mean it is unwashed -- just aged. Some people have naturally greasy hair as well, and being around steaming hot cauldrons all day wouldn't help this matter, so Snape's interest in potions probably contributed and still contributes to the state of his hair, which is probably naturally oily anyway. Aside from his hair, I don't think anything else has ever been mentioned which would cause us to assume that Snape is otherwise unclean or dislikes bathing.
Some people's personalities lend themselves to allowing things to fester, while others don't. As I said earlier, it all depends on the degree to which others' opinions matter to that person. No one really "chooses" to let things fester, IMHO, it's a predisposition more than anything, and sometimes you just have a really hard time getting over things. That doesn't mean it's your fault, just means that's how your personality operates. |
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:57 am
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Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 300
Location: Jedi Temple, Upstate NY Chapter
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| dog star wrote: |
| As for physical cleanliness, we really don't know how many domestic tasks are "taken care of" for the students while they are at Hogwarts. No mention is ever made of laundry, regardless of whether the students do it or the house elves do -- or perhaps they just use magic. |
Hi dog star! Your post reminded me of a passage from CoS (pg. 161, UK children's paperback ed):
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| 'And I sneaked these spare robes out of the laundry, Hernione said, holding up a small sack. 'You'll need bigger sizes once you're Crabbe and Goyle.' |
So it would appear that Hogwarts does have a laundry. I also remembered that the list of Hogwart's supplies for first years carried this instruction:Please note that all pupils' clothes should carry name tags. (PS, pg. 52, same ed). To keep things orderly in the school laundry? In OoP, Mrs. Weasley.... backed into the room carrying a pile of freshly laundered robes. (pg. 148, same ed). It's just so hard to know if JKR hasn't put much thought into how wizards do laundry, or if it mirrors somehow the way we muggles do it, since Hogwarts has a laundry, & Mrs. Weasley is clearly not cleaning robes in situ. If effort is required, I vote that Snape doesn't put much into it...... |
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:41 pm
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Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 93
Location: Owl's Nest, Tennessee
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Hi, Dog Star! 
One of my favorite parts of your essay is when you point out that Snape fans aren't "off their rockers."  When I am alone reading the books, I am totally confident that Snape is a good guy beneath the surface, but when I get into discussions with people, they always bring up his bullying of Harry and I start to waffle. What I've come to realize is that no matter how "unpleasant" Snape is, you have to look at what he does and not what he says. He threatens alot of things, but in the end Harry never gets expelled, never flunks Potions, and never gets poisoned, lol.
It must be nice to be a Lupin fan, and have JKR say that he is her "favorite" character and a really nice man. Maybe he is, but I'd rather sit in on one of Snape's classes any day.
So many times when there is a Snape discussion, people seem to look at the hair, clothes and the speech instead of the man. JKR has a great quote about "looking beneath the surface":
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-cbc-rogers.htm
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Lauren: In all your books, the continuing theme is that people are not what they appear to be. Sometimes they seem dangerous, and are good. Sometimes helpful people are bad. It looks like Harry is being taught to overlook first impressions and to be suspicious of people. Do you think that's something kids need to learn more than other generations?
Rowling: You're right, this is a recurring theme in the books. People are endlessly surprising. It's a very jaded person who thinks they've seen every possible nuance of human nature.
Sometimes I get asked 'What would be your recipe for a happier life?' And I've always said 'A bit more tolerance from all of us.'
One way to learn tolerance is to take the time to really understand other people's motives. Yes, you're right. Harry is often given an erroneous first impression of someone and he has to learn to look beneath the surface. When you look beneath the surface he has sometimes found that he is being fooled by people. And on other occasions he has found very nice surprises. |
I like Snape because he isn't perfect and he isn't a "pretty boy." He isn't described as a "great hero" or "handsome" or "easy-going" or even "funny," though I find his wit to be totally sharp.
But if JKR says her theme is to look "beneath the surface," then what we've got to do is consider Snape as he is. Since he doesn't let many people know him well, we have to look at those he seems to be comfortable with. Dumbledore is the best example. He and Snape seem to have a deep understanding between them, though Snape often feels misunderstood. But he is allowed to disagree with Dumbledore and not feel chastised for it.
Another person who seems to be friendly with Snape is Minerva McGonagall. For all their rivalry at Quidditch, Minerva is often seen talking to Snape, and sometimes mentions having spoken to him about various things. She seems to know how badly Harry does in Potions class, which she hints about in the Chapter of OotP called "Career Advice. She tells Harry he must take Advanced Potions in order to be an Auror, but she can't speak openly due to Umbridge being there, However, she has a "merest hint of a smile" when she says: ""Yes, Potter, Potions."
In CoS, when Harry and Ron are hiding in the Staff Room, all the Heads of Houses gang up on Lockhart as a team, with Snape leading the way! And Minerva even repeats Snape's phrase about Lockhart wanting "free reign" to deal with the monster in the Chamber. There is no hesitancy on the part of Madame Sprout or Prof. Flitwick to take Snape's side against Lockhart. They are all on the same page.
Snape also takes up for Hagrid in that scene, and mentions that Lockhart believed Hagrid was guilty of being the Heir of Slytherin. From the context it is clear that Snape doesn't think Hagrid deserved to go to prison, one of the few times we hear Snape talk about Hagrid. Hagrid, in book one, takes up for Snape at least two times, first when the children tell Hagrid that Snape is trying to get the stone, and then when Hermione tells Hagrid she thinks Snape was hexing Harry during Quidditch. Hagrid seems quite shocked that she would think that.
So there are alot of respected people in Snape's "sociological group" at Hogwarts who seem to get along with Snape, and may even discuss Harry with him. Why would they do that if he was such a horrible person?
There is also the fact that the other Order members accept Snape, and even respect him as the Potions Master. I think Snape has come a long way in his 16 years of teaching.
| Quote: |
| He's a bigot, and immature, and this is what is teaching the wizarding world of the UK's children? |
Snape does call Lily a "Mudblood" one time in the canon, while he is being attacked by a bunch of Gryffindors. He is a fifteen-year-old boy being outnumbered by two bullies and their bystander friends in front of the whole class on exam day, and the only person in the school to come to his rescue is a muggle-born girl from the same house as the bullies. I'll quote my good friend Subtle Science who believes Snape is just telling Lily to "butt out" of his battle.
There is no canon I can think of that shows Snape to be a bigot as an adult. In fact, the opposite. He is seen, even in Book One, speaking conversationally with Argus Filch, who is a squib. Even though he does give Hermione a hard time in front of the Slytherins, he also gives her good grades. I've been re-reading CoS, and when Harry is in Knockturn Alley, Malfoy Sr. points out that Hermione beat Draco in every class - which must include potions! Draco even blames that on all the teachers having "favorites." Now, Hermione is hardly Snape's "favorite," but that also means that Draco doesn't feel that he is the favorite, either. |
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| Posted:
Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:50 pm
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Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 103
Location: Denver, CO USA
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You do make some good points, Silver Ink Pot, but what I keep coming back to when all is said and done is remember that JKR has stated "not to feel too sorry for Snape." I don't want to waste space rehashing everything, so I'll leave it at that.  |
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| Posted:
Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:45 pm
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Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 93
Location: Owl's Nest, Tennessee
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Demiguise: What JKR actually said was that Snape isn't a pleasant person at all, but for people to "keep an eye on him." Whatever that means.
I don't think we are supposed to feel sorry for him, and I don't. The reason I don't feel sorry for him is that I think, as a character, he is trying to overcome many of his problems that lie in the past. I think Snape struggles with his "demons," but I don't believe he is so evil that he doesn't have a few friends. |
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:47 am
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 5
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Gooday everyone...just been out whacking some uppity young whippersnappers with my wand, and I thought I'd pop in. And to that effect, I'll keep it short...
... good stuff Inkpot, I completely agree.
WandWhackerM.D. out! |
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