The Plot Thickens Discussion ~ View topic

I'm curious about people's view of Sirius Black during his arguments with Snape and Molly Weasley. What do you think those scenes were about? Are they supposed to show the "bad" side of Molly and Snape, the angry side of Sirius, or just the strong feelings they all have about Harry?

I see those scenes as "domestic quarrels" that are similar to custody battles between parents, but there are other things going on, too. Sirius has Harry on his own "turf" at Grimmauld Place. Snape is out of his element, being at Grimmauld Place, though he comes there as a teacher for Harry. He and Sirius seem to fall back on their bad teenage relationship when they argue. Molly is taking care of everyone, cleaning, cooking, fussing, but she seems to remind Sirius of his own shrieking mother. Sirius hates to be reminded of the past, and these two people definitely bring up the past.

Let's see where all those ideas take us . . .

Joined: 19 Mar 2005 Posts: 241 Location: Waiting for snow

In these instances, I think we are seeing Sirius' not only personal struggle with the past but also some issues he may have with authority figures. There's really no getting around the fact that Sirius and Snape loathe each other and it probably wasn't a great idea to have Snape more involved in Harry's life than he had been already. As for Molly, I think Sirius is desperately trying to step up and be the father figure in Harry's life at this point, and Molly simply carries on as she always has (regarding Harry as a son) without a thought that Sirius might think she were stepping on his toes. The interesting thing about Sirius in this situation, is that he really doesn't know how to be the father figure to Harry. He's more like a big brother than anything else.

As for authority figures, perhaps JKR was foreshadowing through the arguments with Snape and Molly how Sirius also dealt with Dumbledore? While Sirius did stay dutifully in confinement for most of the book, shouldn't the first thing Sirius have done before going to the DOM been to check with or at least notify Dumbledore?

Joined: 19 Feb 2005 Posts: 5 Location: at the finish line

Sirius seems to be trying to dominate both Molly and Snape.
He seems to have little respect for Molly. I find it fascinating that, while 12 GP is his house, he does nothing to help prepare the meals; while he cleans--reluctantly--it is Molly's job to organize what will be cleaned and how. Somehow, Molly has acquired a whole second family--the Order--to organize and supply...while leaving her own house behind...
I find Harry's first night at 12GP really unpleasant. Others assist Molly in clearing up after the meeting and preparing the meal. Sirius' sole contribution is to invite Mundungus to dinner--someone Molly dislikes and considers a bad influence on her children...but now she gets to cook for him. While he and Sirius sit at the table, talking, while Molly works. Then there's Sirius' decision to subvert Dumbleodre's instructions by encouraging Harry to ask whatever questions he wants to--clearly, he's going against the instructions to the Order, but he doesn't want to hear Molly's protests. Her shot about Azkaban is rude and hurtful--but so are Sirius' well phrased underminings of Molly's parenting...
Molly loses that battle, but Sirius doesn't succeed as well with Snape in the "Occlumency" lesson. Again, Sirius is undermining Dumbledore's orders; he is obviously trying to dominate Snape--but, unlike in Snape's Worst Memory, the adult Snape is quite good at countering Sirius' verbal attacks--in fact, so good that it is Sirius who loses control--even resorting to the childish use of the insult "Snivellus" (in front of Snape's student, no less).

Why is Sirius so hostile toward these two people? He's got a history with Snape; nothing is indicated about Molly, other than the tapestry discussion...Is Sirius jealous? Molly obviously has a close relationship with Harry; Snape obviously is a key member of the Order--is this what's got Sirius in such a snit?

Hi, Subtle Science! Great post, as usual!

I, too, am bothered by the fact that Sirius seems to take Molly for granted in all that she does, and inviting Mundungus to dinner is really too much. I didn't write about the Mundungus "encounter" in my essay, but looking at it more closely, you could almost say it foreshadows the argument that comes later that night.

Sirius tells Harry that Molly is still angry that Mundungus left his post and didn't protect Harry when the Dementors came. Therefore, Molly's reaction must be similar to Mrs. Figg, who beat Mundungus with a bag of cat food cans because she was so angry. There we have two women - Harry's long-time babysitter, and his surrogate mother - who are angry at Mundungus.

His godfather, however, is delighted to see Mundungus. So what is wrong with this picture? Shouldn't Sirius be feeling angry at Mundungus, too, if he truly cares about Harry's safety? Baffling to me.

Your point about Sirius perhaps being jealous of Molly's close relationship with Harry is well-taken, too. I feel that Sirius does have a jealous streak.